The second meeting of the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project was held in Tallahassee on Friday, September 29, 2000, in Room 152 of the Easley Building.

• Van Hoofnagle - Florida Department of Environmental Protection (DEP)
• Ed Bettinger - Florida Department of Health (DOH)
• Jackie Torbert & Bob Dudas - Orange County {by phone}
• Ken Weber - Southwest Florida Water Management District (SWFWMD)
• Jay Lawrence - St. Johns River Water Management District (SJRWMD)
• Lee Killinger - Florida Association of Counties (FAC)
• Gary Williams - Florida Rural Water Association (FRWA)
• John Jenkins - Counsel for Aloha Utilities
• Robert Hall - Copper Development Association (CDA) {by phone}
• Chuck Hungerford - Legislative Committee on Intergovernmental Relations
• Noreen Davis - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Patti Daniel - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• John Williams - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Katrina Tew - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Tom Walden - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Martha Golden - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Shannon Austin - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Mike Wetherington - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Bill Lowe - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Richard Tudor - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Pat Brady - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)

Welcome & Introductions:

Patti Daniel began the meeting by welcoming participants and allowing them to introduce themselves. She briefly discussed the timeline of the Interagency Project and the participation in the work groups. Then, she turned the meeting over to Van Hoofnagle and John Williams to do the two work group reports.

Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group Report

Van Hoofnagle reported on the activities of the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group (originally termed the Treatment & Standards Group) which he chairs. Other members of the work group include Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities), Gary Williams (FRWA), Ed Bettinger (DOH), and several FPSC staff. The group had met twice since the initial Interagency Project meeting on August 24th. The group's task was to explore possible water treatment options to remove hydrogen sulfide and possible revisions to DEP standards.

At the first work group meeting, the participants decided to address the issue from a statewide perspective as opposed to concentrating on a specific area. The group discussed the location of the problem in the state and reviewed a map depicting groundwater monitoring well test data from DEP which showed similar results to data gathered in the lead and copper rule testing. Participants discussed the three prior studies on the copper pipe corrosion/hydrogen sulfide problem and recognized flaws with each. The group also suggested addressing all sulfides. There is no current DEP standard on sulfur, and Van noted the difficulty in setting a new "one size fits all" standard which may introduce a lot of cost to a lot of utilities unnecessarily. Participants also briefly discussed educational efforts.

At the second work group meeting, the group's proposed strategy to address the problem began to focus on the DEP permitting rules which are currently under review by the agency. The group decided to explore adding something to the permitting rules to address the hydrogen sulfide problem. Relatively inexpensive tests could be done in the field to measure for pH, hardness, alkalinity, total sulfides, and hydrogen sulfide. These five measurements could be put into some tables and analyzed collectively to determine whether the well is high risk for black water problems. Bob Powell was asked to draft something for this purpose. If the well was found to be high risk, chlorination alone might be ruled out as an option, and some sort of certification by the utility that it has addressed the problem may be necessary. It was suggested that it may be preferable to state that in certain circumstances, chlorination is not good enough and leave the solution up to the utility.

The work group will attempt to continue to meet approximately twice a month. The next meeting is scheduled for October 12th in Orlando at the offices of Boyle Engineering.

Building Codes/ County Ordinances/ Education Work Group Report

John Williams (FPSC) reported on the activities of the Building Codes/ County Ordinances/ Education Work Group which is chaired by Mo Madani of the Department of Community Affairs (DCA). Other members of the work group include Ann Stanton (DCA), Lee Killinger (FAC), and several FPSC staff. The group had met twice since the initial Interagency Project meeting on August 24th. The group's task was to explore new (or changes to existing) building codes or county ordinances regarding the material used for water pipes in affected areas.

At the first work group meeting, Mo Madani surprised the group with copies of Chapter 6 of the third draft of the Florida Building Code-Volume II-Plumbing which will go into effect on July 1, 2001. This new provision appears to address the copper pipe corrosion problem by putting the responsibility on the contractor to select the proper piping for homes based on the water supplied by the utility. Section 605.1 of this draft states:

605.1 Water compatibility. Water service pipe and water distribution pipe shall be resistant to corrosive action and degrading action from the potable water supplied by the water purveyor or individual water supply system.

At the second work group meeting, the group focused on an education program. John Williams explained that the Florida Building Commission (FBC) has a budget to provide an education program on the new building code. The group's proposed strategy is to tie in to the FBC's program in order to educate builders and developers about the copper pipe corrosion problem and how best to avoid it in areas with high levels of hydrogen sulfide in the water. The group plans to work jointly with the FBC's Plumbing Technical Advisory Committee (TAC) on this approach. The work group will meet with the Plumbing TAC on October 16th to see if they are willing to work with the Interagency Project's Building Codes Work Group in this manner.

Discussion of Work Group Strategies

There seemed to be agreement with the current strategies of each work group. Ken Weber (SWFWMD) stated a willingness to help and questioned whether we have a good idea about the pervasiveness of the problem. Van responded that since complaints on the subject have been random, it has led us to an incremental approach. Ken suggested that the group survey to get a better idea of the location and magnitude of the problem. Jay Lawrence (SJRWMD) said that most utilities in the Northeast district aerate. He agreed that it seems appropriate to survey and offered help in doing that. Gary Williams (FRWA) voiced support for the approach of the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group in that there could be cost savings in the long run by looking at the permitting aspect. Ed Bettinger (DOH) stated that we need to address this problem at the starting point -- from the ground -- by looking at the chemistry. Lee Killinger (FAC) noted that in his discussions with the counties, they are not receiving a lot of complaints, and for those that have had the problem, they did something about it on the front end. He added that new standards are not the easiest way to go. He also offered to help with surveys if the group decided to go forward with that suggestion.

Lee also stated that he was unsure about what to do with respect to the existing customers -- whether having customers retrofit their pipes or seeking some sort of help with the cost is the right thing in that situation. Patti then recapped how we were originally hoping to have a volunteers to chair a work group on existing customers that never materialized. Lee stated that the group can try to get some money through a grant program.

Jackie Torbert (Orange County) asked to be included in the work groups. She wanted to work on the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group, while Bob Dudas (Orange County) would work on the Building Codes/County Ordinances/Education Work Group. Robert Hall (CDA) stated that he had been tracking this concern for the past 7½ years. He agreed with Lee that utilities are putting programs in place to address this, and he added that other utilities experiencing problems can learn from them. He mentioned that the CDA is proactive in researching copper corrosion problems and that they were willing to help in any way possible.

After getting feedback from the participants, Patti illustrated the FPSC website (www.floridapsc.com) and the addition of information on the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project.

Next Meeting

Patti suggested November 17th as a tentative date for the next Interagency Project meeting. The meeting was then adjourned.