• Final Report
  • Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion Project: Final Report (PDF File size = 3.3MB)
• Interagency Meeting Notices
  • Notice for March 19, 2001
  • Notice for November 17, 2000
  • Notice for September 29, 2000
• Meeting Minutes
  • Interagency Meetings
    • Meeting 1 (August 24, 2000)
    • Meeting 2 (September 29, 2000)
  • Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group Meetings
    • Meeting 1 (September 8, 2000)
    • Meeting 2 (September 15, 2000)
  • Building Codes & County Ordinances Work Group Meetings
    • Meeting 1 (September 8, 2000)
    • Meeting 2 (WORK PLAN)
      

Public Service Commission
M-E-M-O-R-A-N-D-U-M

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DATE:     March 8, 2001
TO:         All Project Members and Interested Persons
FROM:    Patti Daniel, Florida Public Service Commission
RE:         Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project Meeting

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Please note that a third meeting of the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project has been scheduled for the following time and place:

Monday, March 19, 2001, 10:00 a.m. - 12:00 noon

Betty Easley Conference Center

4075 Esplanade Way, Room 152

Tallahassee, Florida 32399-0850

The purpose of the meeting is to address the progress made by the Project Work Groups, and to provide all of the Project participants an opportunity to discuss their comments and changes for the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion Project Final Report. A draft report is currently being prepared and will be distributed next week to allow the Project participants an opportunity to review the report prior to this meeting. To expedite the process, the draft will be sent via e-mail to the Project participants for whom we have e-mail addresses. All interested persons are encouraged to attend.

If you cannot participate in person, please call Martha Golden at (850) 413-7015 regarding participation by phone. Any person requiring some accommodation at this meeting because of a physical impairment should call the Commission's Bureau of Records. at (850) 413-6770 at least 48 hours prior to the meeting.

If you have any questions about the meeting, please call Patti Daniel at (850) 413-6808 or Martha Golden at (850) 413-7015.

Public Service Commission
M-E-M-O-R-A-N-D-U-M

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DATE:     November 1, 2000
TO:         All Project Members and Interested Persons
FROM:    Patti Daniel, Florida Public Service Commission
RE:         Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project Meeting

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Please note that a third meeting of the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project has been scheduled for the following time and place:

Friday, November 17, 2000, 10:00 a.m. - 12:00 noon

Betty Easley Conference Center

4075 Esplanade Way, Room 152

Tallahassee, Florida 32399-0850

The purpose of the meeting is to address the progress made by the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group and the Building Code & County Ordinance Work Group and to the discuss the next steps in the Interagency Project. All interested persons are encouraged to attend.

If you cannot participate in person, please call Katrina Tew at (850) 413-6656 regarding participation by phone. Any person requiring some accommodation at this meeting because of a physical impairment should call the Commission's Bureau of Records. at (850) 413-6770 at least 48 hours prior to the meeting.

Minutes of the last two Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project meetings, as well as the work group meetings, are available on the FPSC Website at the following address: UtilityRegulation/BlackWaterProject.

If you have any other questions about the meeting, please call Patti Daniel at (850) 413-6808 or Katrina Tew at (850) 413-6656.

NSD

Public Service Commission
M-E-M-O-R-A-N-D-U-M

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DATE:     September 21, 2000
TO:         All Project Members and Interested Persons
FROM:    Patti Daniel, Florida Public Service Commission
RE:         Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project Meeting

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Please note that a second meeting of the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project has been scheduled for the following time and place:

Friday, September 29, 2000, 9:30 a.m. - 12:00 noon

Betty Easley Conference Center

4075 Esplanade Way, Room 152

Tallahassee, Florida 32399-0850

The purpose of the meeting is to address the progress made by the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group and the Building Code & County Ordinance Work Group and to the discuss the next steps in the Project. All interested persons are encouraged to attend. If you cannot participate in person, please call Katrina Tew at (850) 413-6656 regarding participation by phone. If you have any questions about the meeting, please call Patti Daniel at (850) 413-6808.

NSD/dm
Attachments:

1. Minutes of Meeting #1 of Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group
2. Minutes of Meeting #2 of Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group
3. Pros & Cons for Establishing a Treatment Technique or Secondary Maximum Contaminant Standard for Hydrogen Sulfide
4. Minutes of Meeting #1 of Building Codes & County Ordinances Work Group
5. Work Plan of Building Codes & County Ordinances Work Group

Project Minutes:

Meeting #1 (August 24, 2000 @ 1:00 PM)

The initial Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project meeting was held on Thursday, August 24, 2000, in the Easley Building. The following is a summary of the discussion at that meeting:

The meeting was very well attended, including reps from the Florida Department of Environmental Protection (DEP), the Florida Department of Community Affairs (DCA), the Florida Department of Health (DOH), the Office of Public Counsel (OPC), Nassau County Building Department, Pasco County, Orange County, Southwest Florida Water Management District (WMD), Florida Association of Counties, Florida League of Cities, the Governor's Office, the Florida Conflict Resolution Consortium, Aloha Utilities, and several Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC) staff.

FPSC Commissioner Lila Jaber kicked off the meeting by welcoming participants and explaining the purpose of the meeting.

Tom Walden (FPSC) discussed hydrogen sulfide corrosion problems, including a synopsis of the three prior studies of the problem.

Patti Daniel (FPSC) presented our draft proposals for the work group structure. She explained that we were hoping to have volunteers to chair the following groups and stressed that although we had shared our ideas for the groups, each group would have complete flexibility to shape its own agenda:

Group A - Current Copper Pipe Corrosion in Homes: Repair or Replace -
Explore possible options to aid customers with existing damaged pipes. Group A may want to explore the scope of the problem --how many homes are affected, etc.

Group B - Prevention of Future Copper Pipe Corrosion: Treatment to Remove Hydrogen Sulfide -
Explore possible water treatment options to remove hydrogen sulfide and possible revisions to DEP standards. (Currently, the quality of the water as it enters the customers' homes is meeting all state and federal drinking water standards.)

Group C - Prevention of Future Copper Pipe Corrosion: Building Codes/County Ordinances -
Explore new (or changes to existing) building codes or county ordinances regarding the material used for water pipes in affected areas.

Patti Daniel (FPSC) explained that we were hoping that the work groups might meet twice a month, whether in person or by conference call, and suggested that everyone agree on dates for the working groups to meet the first time. After that, each group could make its own plans for future meetings. Each work group should document its efforts and make a report on its progress to the larger Interagency Project group. She offered that our staff would help by developing e-mail lists, setting up conference calls, or making other arrangements as requested by the work groups.

The participants made several suggestions for other entities that should be invited to future meetings, including the Florida Section of the American Water Works Association, the Water Quality Association, the Florida Home Builders Association, the Building Materials Association, and the Plumbing, Building, & Gas group. Mimi Drew (DEP) suggested that Staff Directors of appropriate legislative committees be invited to future meetings.

Bruce Kennedy (Pasco County Utilities) suggested that the head of the workgroups should have the power to choose who they want involved in the groups. Van Hoofnagle (DEP) and Pepe Menendez (DOH) agreed and added that the head of each workgroup should be able to determine the size of the group as well. Mimi Drew (DEP) suggested it might work better to keep the work groups small and that if we invite industry representatives too soon, the process may get bogged down. Instead she suggested that the technical groups come up with ideas to suggest in a public forum.

Feedback on Group A - Current Copper Pipe Corrosion in Homes: Repair or Replace
Ann Stanton (DCA) questioned whether a surcharge to cover repair or replacement was a viable option. Van Hoofnagle (DEP) explained that the areas of the state with hydrogen sulfide in the water were generally a band across the middle of the state, and up and down both coasts. However, he noted that DEP doesn't monitor for hydrogen sulfide and does not have data on the number of customers with the problem. Pepe Menendez (DOH) said they do not have data on affected customers with the exception of complaints received. Also, Dave Porter (consulting engineer for Aloha Utilities) stated that the map presented by staff at the meeting only represents areas where people voluntarily identified the problem during a study done by the Richter School at the University of Florida and may not address all the areas that have the problem. Bruce Kennedy (Pasco County Utilities) discussed that they determined the level of their black water problem based upon complaints -- that the black water problem is a random problem and that the water meets standards. Additionally, they entered into a contract to purchase water from Tampa Bay with a provision covering water aesthetics. He suggested this might be an option for other utilities with this problem.

Feedback on Group B - Prevention of Future Copper Pipe Corrosion: Treatment to Remove Hydrogen Sulfide
Van Hoofnagle (DEP) voiced concern about the expectation of completing such a complex project in a few months. Mimi Drew (DEP) discussed the Federal Safe Drinking Water Act -- that if Florida DEP wants to set a drinking water standard that exceeds the federal standard, the proposal would have to be approved by the Governor and Cabinet. Van Hoofnagle (DEP) added that it is difficult to set secondary drinking water standards.

Feedback on Group C - Prevention of Future Copper Pipe Corrosion: Building Codes/County Ordinances
Ann Stanton (DCA) commented that changes to individual county building codes to prohibit copper pipes in new residential construction cannot be accomplished under current laws without the Florida Building Commission approval. Additionally, she suggested getting data on whether building contractors may already be switching to CPVC pipe on their own in new construction.

Next Meeting
The group agreed to hold a second Interagency Project meeting on Friday, Sept. 29, and to invite industry to participate in this meeting. There also seemed to be agreement to go forward with the work groups. The participants agreed that the first working group meetings would take place on Friday, Sept. 8. The meeting was then adjourned.

Project Minutes:

Meeting #2 (September 29, 2000 @ 9:30 AM)

The second meeting of the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project was held in Tallahassee on Friday, September 29, 2000, in Room 152 of the Easley Building.

Attendees:

• Van Hoofnagle - Florida Department of Environmental Protection (DEP)
• Ed Bettinger - Florida Department of Health (DOH)
• Jackie Torbert & Bob Dudas - Orange County {by phone}
• Ken Weber - Southwest Florida Water Management District (SWFWMD)
• Jay Lawrence - St. Johns River Water Management District (SJRWMD)
• Lee Killinger - Florida Association of Counties (FAC)
• Gary Williams - Florida Rural Water Association (FRWA)
• John Jenkins - Counsel for Aloha Utilities
• Robert Hall - Copper Development Association (CDA) {by phone}
• Chuck Hungerford - Legislative Committee on Intergovernmental Relations
• Noreen Davis - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Patti Daniel - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• John Williams - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Katrina Tew - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Tom Walden - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Martha Golden - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Shannon Austin - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Mike Wetherington - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Bill Lowe - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Richard Tudor - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)
• Pat Brady - Florida Public Service Commission (FPSC)

Welcome & Introductions:

Patti Daniel began the meeting by welcoming participants and allowing them to introduce themselves. She briefly discussed the timeline of the Interagency Project and the participation in the work groups. Then, she turned the meeting over to Van Hoofnagle and John Williams to do the two work group reports.

Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group Report

Van Hoofnagle reported on the activities of the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group (originally termed the Treatment & Standards Group) which he chairs. Other members of the work group include Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities), Gary Williams (FRWA), Ed Bettinger (DOH), and several FPSC staff. The group had met twice since the initial Interagency Project meeting on August 24th. The group's task was to explore possible water treatment options to remove hydrogen sulfide and possible revisions to DEP standards.

At the first work group meeting, the participants decided to address the issue from a statewide perspective as opposed to concentrating on a specific area. The group discussed the location of the problem in the state and reviewed a map depicting groundwater monitoring well test data from DEP which showed similar results to data gathered in the lead and copper rule testing. Participants discussed the three prior studies on the copper pipe corrosion/hydrogen sulfide problem and recognized flaws with each. The group also suggested addressing all sulfides. There is no current DEP standard on sulfur, and Van noted the difficulty in setting a new "one size fits all" standard which may introduce a lot of cost to a lot of utilities unnecessarily. Participants also briefly discussed educational efforts.

At the second work group meeting, the group's proposed strategy to address the problem began to focus on the DEP permitting rules which are currently under review by the agency. The group decided to explore adding something to the permitting rules to address the hydrogen sulfide problem. Relatively inexpensive tests could be done in the field to measure for pH, hardness, alkalinity, total sulfides, and hydrogen sulfide. These five measurements could be put into some tables and analyzed collectively to determine whether the well is high risk for black water problems. Bob Powell was asked to draft something for this purpose. If the well was found to be high risk, chlorination alone might be ruled out as an option, and some sort of certification by the utility that it has addressed the problem may be necessary. It was suggested that it may be preferable to state that in certain circumstances, chlorination is not good enough and leave the solution up to the utility.

The work group will attempt to continue to meet approximately twice a month. The next meeting is scheduled for October 12th in Orlando at the offices of Boyle Engineering.

Building Codes/ County Ordinances/ Education Work Group Report

John Williams (FPSC) reported on the activities of the Building Codes/ County Ordinances/ Education Work Group which is chaired by Mo Madani of the Department of Community Affairs (DCA). Other members of the work group include Ann Stanton (DCA), Lee Killinger (FAC), and several FPSC staff. The group had met twice since the initial Interagency Project meeting on August 24th. The group's task was to explore new (or changes to existing) building codes or county ordinances regarding the material used for water pipes in affected areas.

At the first work group meeting, Mo Madani surprised the group with copies of Chapter 6 of the third draft of the Florida Building Code-Volume II-Plumbing which will go into effect on July 1, 2001. This new provision appears to address the copper pipe corrosion problem by putting the responsibility on the contractor to select the proper piping for homes based on the water supplied by the utility. Section 605.1 of this draft states:

605.1 Water compatibility. Water service pipe and water distribution pipe shall be resistant to corrosive action and degrading action from the potable water supplied by the water purveyor or individual water supply system.

At the second work group meeting, the group focused on an education program. John Williams explained that the Florida Building Commission (FBC) has a budget to provide an education program on the new building code. The group's proposed strategy is to tie in to the FBC's program in order to educate builders and developers about the copper pipe corrosion problem and how best to avoid it in areas with high levels of hydrogen sulfide in the water. The group plans to work jointly with the FBC's Plumbing Technical Advisory Committee (TAC) on this approach. The work group will meet with the Plumbing TAC on October 16th to see if they are willing to work with the Interagency Project's Building Codes Work Group in this manner.

Discussion of Work Group Strategies

There seemed to be agreement with the current strategies of each work group. Ken Weber (SWFWMD) stated a willingness to help and questioned whether we have a good idea about the pervasiveness of the problem. Van responded that since complaints on the subject have been random, it has led us to an incremental approach. Ken suggested that the group survey to get a better idea of the location and magnitude of the problem. Jay Lawrence (SJRWMD) said that most utilities in the Northeast district aerate. He agreed that it seems appropriate to survey and offered help in doing that. Gary Williams (FRWA) voiced support for the approach of the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group in that there could be cost savings in the long run by looking at the permitting aspect. Ed Bettinger (DOH) stated that we need to address this problem at the starting point -- from the ground -- by looking at the chemistry. Lee Killinger (FAC) noted that in his discussions with the counties, they are not receiving a lot of complaints, and for those that have had the problem, they did something about it on the front end. He added that new standards are not the easiest way to go. He also offered to help with surveys if the group decided to go forward with that suggestion.

Lee also stated that he was unsure about what to do with respect to the existing customers -- whether having customers retrofit their pipes or seeking some sort of help with the cost is the right thing in that situation. Patti then recapped how we were originally hoping to have a volunteers to chair a work group on existing customers that never materialized. Lee stated that the group can try to get some money through a grant program.

Jackie Torbert (Orange County) asked to be included in the work groups. She wanted to work on the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group, while Bob Dudas (Orange County) would work on the Building Codes/County Ordinances/Education Work Group. Robert Hall (CDA) stated that he had been tracking this concern for the past 7½ years. He agreed with Lee that utilities are putting programs in place to address this, and he added that other utilities experiencing problems can learn from them. He mentioned that the CDA is proactive in researching copper corrosion problems and that they were willing to help in any way possible.

After getting feedback from the participants, Patti illustrated the FPSC website www.floridaPSC.com and the addition of information on the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project.

Next Meeting

Patti suggested November 17th as a tentative date for the next Interagency Project meeting. The meeting was then adjourned.

Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group Minutes:

Meeting #1 (September 8, 2000 @ 8:00-11:00 AM)
Chairman:     Van Hoofnagle (Florida Department of Environmental Protection)
Participants:

Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities)

Gary Williams (Florida Rural Water Association)

Bill Lowe (Florida Public Service Commission)

Patti Daniel (Florida Public Service Commission)

Tom Walden (Florida Public Service Commission)

Michael Wetherington (Florida Public Service Commission)

John Williams (Florida Public Service Commission)

Katrina Tew (Florida Public Service Commission)

Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) welcomed everyone and opened discussion of the work group's goals, timeline, and scope. Patti Daniel (FPSC) distributed handouts from the first Interagency Project meeting on August 24, 2000 which were used to guide discussion of the following:

Goals - Explore possible water treatment options to remove hydrogen sulfide to prevent the "black water" problem on a going forward basis.

Timeline - The next Interagency Project meeting is scheduled for Friday, September 29, 2000. The group will be expected to make an oral presentation on its progress at that meeting. Beyond that, the FPSC has proposed a timeline which aims to have an end product by December 2000. Participants agreed that this is a very short timeframe and discussed that the FPSC had proposed this schedule in order to allow time for possible legislation if that is the final recommendation of the Interagency Project group.

Scope - Copper corrosion is a much broader issue than hydrogen sulfide and manifests itself in more forms (i.e., other colors) than that experienced in the black water complaints.

Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) stated that whether true or not, the larger Interagency Project group seemed to agree that hydrogen sulfide is causing the black water problem. This led to a brief discussion of the three prior studies on hydrogen sulfide and copper corrosion problems:

University of Florida study - Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) reported that many think this study was badly flawed. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) stated that he'd asked that his name be removed from the final report.

Pasco County study - This study was done by the FDEP to see if there was something a homeowner with the black water problem could do to resolve the problem at minimal expense. The data was inconclusive. (Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) stated that if his residence had this problem, he would turn the water heater temperature to 150 degrees. There are liability concerns, however, with issuing such a recommendation to homeowners.)

Sarah Jacobs study - Some people do not agree with some of the conclusions. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) noted the that the study used western waters, that the study was not done in "the real world," and that the study incorrectly concluded that once corrosion from hydrogen sulfide starts, it cannot be stopped.

Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) stated that sulfur can be dealt with, but it may need to be treated differently for different utilities. Gary Williams (FL Rural Water Association) noted that with respect to the Lead and Copper Rule, utility-specific factors are plugged in to arrive at a standard for that utility's system. Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) explained how some water utilities (like Pinellas County Utilities) have a centralized system with distribution and how others (like Aloha Utilities and the City of Tallahassee) have several wells across their service territory. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) added that in different wells, utilities may experience significant differences in the sulfides.

Causes of corrosion include dissolved oxygen (DO), chlorination, and hydrogen sulfide. Other factors are roughness factors of the interior of the pipe; type and amount of solder and solder flux.

Iron, copper, and sulfur can produce colored water. Sulfur produces black water under the right conditions. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) noted that corrosion can be diminished by using an inhibitor, changing the amount of DO, or adjusting the pH balance. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) said black water is more prevalent in homes with water softeners, primarily due to removal of chlorine, and a change in the pH and alkalinity of the water, causing the inhibitor not to work as well. Things that may help reduce corrosion include adjusting pH and alkalinity, degasification of carbon dioxide and sulfides, removal of total organic carbon (TOC) and the use of a weaker oxidant for disinfection such as chloramines.

Tom Walden (FPSC) shared with the group some well test data from FDEP gathered by Patricia Brady (FPSC) and plotted on a state map. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) inquired as to the depth of the wells. Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) noted that these were groundwater monitoring wells, not drinking water wells, and that they were put in to look at many factors, including alkalinity and sulfides. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) said that the data seemed to agree with his experience, noting that surficial wells were not significant and should not be included on the map. He added that if you are talking about regulations to address hydrogen sulfide, you should address total sulfur, most of which is in the form of hydrogen sulfide. Otherwise, many utilities would just chlorinate, and you would still have the problem. Also, utilities can use existing tests to come up with total sulfur measurements without much additional difficulty. Presently, there is no FDEP standard on sulfur.

John Williams (FPSC) asked why utilities did not simply drill new wells when they discovered problems with existing ones. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) responded that sometimes utilities do take that action. Gary Williams (FL Rural Water Association) interjected that there are some places with high sulfates with no reported black water problem.

Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) said that field analysis is best for testing for sulfides, rather than transporting water samples to the lab. TOC is important too, for its microbial effect.

A common treatment method used in the Central and South DEP districts is aeration. The achieved effect depends on pH, with low pH (6.5 or so) achieving very good sulfur removal, in the range of 50-75%. Pinellas County uses tray aeration and attains 30-40% removal. This method has been used in Pinellas since 1956, and DO is added to control hydrogen sulfide. There have been some problems with green water, but inhibitor and pH adjustment solved the problem.

Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) stated that he wanted to avoid the complexities similar to the Lead & Copper Rule, noting that less than 10% of utilities exceed standards. He added that sulfate is a secondary standard at 250 mg/l, and is now required to be tested for every three years. He questioned what we would tell utilities to do with the information after asking them to monitor for it. Another approach is the public notice approach – to educate the utilities as much as possible. FDEP could possibly withhold additional permits for utility system expansion unless they address the black water problem. Of course, many smaller water utilities (i.e., mobile home parks) are not interested in expansion.

Patti Daniel (FPSC) inquired about the possibility of using water quality reports to get the word out. Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) discussed the use of these Consumer Confidence Reports (CCR) as an option. The federal government sets the requirements for what must be reported in the CCRs which are revised annually. Another option is setting a new standard allowing a certain maximum level of hydrogen sulfide or sulfur. Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) added that FDEP did not really want to set a new standard since there did not appear to be sound science to back up such a proposal, which would have to go before the Governor and Cabinet.

Van Hoofnagle (FDEP) reviewed some important things for the work group to consider, with the hope that decisions could be reached on them at the next work group meeting:

• Solution to address sulfur, sulfides, or sulfates?
• List of regulatory approaches to problem?
• Technical guidance documents for regulators and utilities?
• Incremental approach - Take some immediate action and look at again in one year?
• Use of CCRs?

The group discussed whether other stakeholders should be included in the work group. Ed Bettinger with the Florida Department of Health should be included in the group although he did not make the first meeting. Also, Gary Williams (FL Rural Water Association) suggested that if we were looking to include the AWWA, Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) might be able to represent them in addition to Pinellas County Utilities, as he is a member of AWWA. The group thought that Ken Weber of the Southwest Florida Water Management District might also be invited.

The group decided to call itself the "Sulfide Source Water Issues" Work Group and to hold the next meeting on Friday, September 15, 2000 @ 8:30 AM in the FPSC Gunter Building, Room 207.

Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group Minutes:

Meeting #2 (September 15, 2000 @ 8:30-11:00 AM)

Participants:

• Van Hoofnagle (FL DEP) - Chairman
• Gary Williams (FL Rural Water Association)
• Patti Daniel (FL PSC)
• Katrina Tew (FL PSC)
• Robert Powell (Pinellas County Utilities)
• Tom Walden (FL PSC)
• Bill Lowe (FL PSC)
• John Williams (FL PSC)

Discussion:
Chairman Van Hoofnagle(DEP) welcomed everyone to the meeting. The minutes from the first work group meeting on September 8th were approved.

Patti Daniel (PSC) briefly reported the activities of the Building Codes/County Ordinances/Education Work Group which had met the prior afternoon. John Williams (PSC) followed up with questions about whether DEP could require utilities to report premature water pipe failure or other evidence of hydrogen sulfide problems to city and county building departments and to provide information to DEP for purposes of mapping or creating databases on the location of the problem. Van Hoofnagle (DEP) responded that he did not think collecting data for the purpose of maps or databases was likely due to cutbacks and the workload.

Van Hoofnagle (DEP) referred to the "Pros & Cons for Establishing a Treatment Technique or Secondary Maximum Contaminant Standard for Hydrogen Sulfide" document which was distributed at the first work group meeting. Mike Leroy (DEP) was the primary author of the document. The group decided to attach it, along with the minutes of each of the first two meetings, to the notice of the September 29th Interagency Project group meeting which will be going out in the next week.

Van Hoofnagle (DEP) mentioned the possibility of adding a hotline number in the Consumer Confidence Report (CCR) so that customers could report aesthetic problems with their water. Gary Williams (FRWA) voiced concern with this approach as it may encourage people to call, whether or not they are experiencing problems. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) said that Pinellas County Utilities includes a phone number for reporting water quality problems in customer bills and that they keep records of the complaints. Van Hoofnagle (DEP) also mentioned the possibility of using technical training seminars.

Van Hoofnagle (DEP) then began a discussion of another option. He explained that after eight years, DEP is opening its permitting operations rules. Whenever a new well is opened, these rules are used to require utilities to do sampling of the wells and make certain assurances. The group could propose adding something to the permitting rules to address the hydrogen sulfide problem. Relatively inexpensive tests could be done in the field to measure for pH, hardness, alkalinity, total sulfides, and hydrogen sulfide. These five measurements could be put into some tables and analyzed collectively to determine whether the well is a high risk for black water problems. If so, chlorination alone would be ruled out as an option, and some sort of certification by the utility that it has addressed the problem may be necessary.

Van Hoofnagle (DEP) noted that if DEP were to recommend a particular treatment technique, going before the Governor and Cabinet would be necessary. He suggested that it may be preferable to state that in certain circumstances, chlorination is not good enough and leave the solution up to the utility. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) agreed that it is better to leave some flexibility for the utility engineers. John Williams (PSC) added that the best solution may be to drill a new well. Utilities could do a cost/benefit analysis to decide whether to treat the well found to be at high risk for black water or to drill a new well.

Van Hoofnagle (DEP) added that he would have to speak with the agency's attorneys about rulemaking. Through the open permitting process, the new provision could be in place in a year. Van Hoofnagle (DEP) suggested that the PSC and DCA attend one of DEP's first Technical Advisory Committee (TAC) meetings to take place during the week of October 23rd.

The group seemed very receptive to this regulatory guidance approach and agreed to assist DEP in this effort by developing numbers which would show whether a well is a high risk for black water problems. Gary Williams (FRWA) noted that utilities should be receptive as well, as this is really a protection of utility systems. The group clarified that this approach will address community systems. Also, the group decided that this approach should be used regardless of the size of the systems because the cheap, easy fix is not necessarily the best method. John Williams (PSC) noted that if the testing would be a problem for certain small start-up water utilities, maybe they should not be getting into the business in an increasing-cost industry in the first place. Gary Williams (FRWA) added that the FRWA might be willing to do the testing for the smaller utilities.

Van Hoofnagle (DEP) added that this should be viewed as an incremental approach, noting that there currently is not a large public outcry concerning black water.

The group discussed the upcoming Interagency Project meeting on September 29th. Van Hoofnagle (DEP) will deliver the work group's report. Some group members expressed interest in phoning in for the meeting, and Katrina Tew (PSC) agreed to get the information to them.

The group scheduled the next work group meeting for October 12th in Orlando (1:30 - 4:00 PM) since many of the participants will be there for the PSC's Class C Workshop. Bob Powell (Pinellas County Utilities) and John Williams (PSC) agreed to work on getting a meeting room.

The meeting was adjourned at approximately 11:00 AM.

Building Codes & County Ordinances Work Group Minutes:

Meeting #1 (September 8, 2000 @ 1:30 PM)
Attendees:
Mo Madani, DCA
Ann Stanton, DCA
Katrina Tew, PSC
Tom Walden, PSC
Dan Hoppe, PSC
Bill Lowe, PSC
K.A. Tenah, UF
Patti Daniel, PSC
Martha Golden, PSC
John Williams, PSC
Shannon Austin, PSC
Lee Killinger, FAC

Opening:
The Building Codes & County Ordinances Work Group of the Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project was called to order by Patti Daniel of the Florida Public Service Commission (PSC) at 1:30 pm. Daniel (PSC) briefly summarized events of the first Interagency Project meeting on August 24, 2000 and reviewed the proposed goal of this work group -- to explore new (or changes to existing) building codes or county ordinances and public education as a means to prevent the black water problem on a going forward basis. The group then discussed the objectives of the work group meeting as well as the need to make an oral presentation on the group's progress at the upcoming Interagency Project meeting scheduled for Friday, September 29, 2000.

Discussion:
The meeting was then turned over to Mo Madani of the Florida Department of Community Affairs (DCA). Madani (DCA) described efforts made over a two-year period by the former Board of Building Codes and Standards and its contractor, Dr. Tenah of the University of Florida (UF). He provided copies of the final report of that project to the group.

Madani (DCA) also distributed copies of Chapter 6 of the third draft of the Florida Building Code-Volume II-Plumbing which will go into effect on July 1, 2001. Section 605.1 of this draft states:

605.1 Water compatibility. Water service pipe and water distribution pipe shall be resistant to corrosive action and degrading action from the potable water supplied by the water purveyor or individual water supply system.

Madani (DCA) explained that this new provision will put the responsibility on the engineer and the contractor to select the proper piping for homes. The group was very pleased with this draft language. When asked what action could be taken if a contractor was shown not to be in compliance with the new building code, Madani (DCA) responded that the contractor could be taken to court. The group seemed very pleased with the new provisions in Chapter 6 of the draft building code.

Madani (DCA) stated that DCA does not discriminate against products and that is impractical to ban copper pipe in Florida as it appears to have no problems in most areas of the state. Madani (DCA) stated that very little more can be done within the code, but that working through the Plumbing Technical Advisory Committee to the Florida Building Commission (FBC) on an educational program is advised. The group could address training for contractors/designers on the black water problem and on ways to comply with the new provision in Chapter 6 of the code in areas that are prone to the black water problem. The FBC is made up of 12 voting members which meet once a month. Madani (DCA) and Ann Stanton (DCA) work with the FBC as technical advisors on the code. The upcoming FBC meetings within the project's timeframe are October 16-17 in Orlando, November 13-14 in West Palm Beach, and December 11-12 in Orlando.

Lee Killinger of the Florida Association of Counties (FAC) agreed with Madani's (DCA) suggestion to work with the FBC, describing the actions of the Governor's Study Commission on Building Codes and the FBC toward putting together a statewide code designed to meet the needs of all Florida's citizens. He stated that you cannot propose any changes to the codes without involving the FBC. He brought up the ability of local governments to amend the code, although such amendments must be re-evaluated periodically. Madani (DCA) added that these local amendments are allowed as long as they make the requirements more stringent. Also, they must be approved by a county-wide review board. Although such amendments to the code do not have to be approved by DCA, they could be appealed to DCA.

Discussion ensued regarding the predictability of the black water problem. Tom Walden stated that the problem can show up within 2 weeks or after 40 years. In its regulation of water utilities, the PSC does not impose quality of service standards that exceed those promulgated by the Department of Environmental Protection (DEP), and the quality of the water as it enters the homes of customers experiencing the black water problem is meeting all state and federal drinking water standards. The problem arises because black water is an aesthetic issue, not a health issue. So far, corrosion has shown up only in Type M copper pipe, which has thinner walls. Black water has been found in commercial applications as well as residential. People often request copper piping because it is viewed as a desired option by northerners moving to Florida. Workmanship has been implicated as a contributor to the problem, as have flux, and aggressive water (dissolved minerals, organic matter, ammonia and sulfides in the water), and the velocity of the water.

Dr. K.A. Tenah (UF) was asked to present some of the UF study's findings. He described an extensive literature search, ranging from Florida to the United States and the world, and a field survey to determine the extent of the problem. Results indicate the black water problem is found down the east coast of Florida to Daytona and then across the I-4 corridor, with many cases in the Orlando area. Unfortunately, conditions were so diverse that they were unable to pin down the exact cause(s) of the problem and strongly recommended further field studies, emphasizing the need to take 1,300 water samples and 400 pipe samples in a consistent search pattern. He passed out copies of a proposal put together in 1999 that, if funded, could resolve some of the questions for an estimated $800,000. (He noted that this figure would likely be higher now due to increased salaries and travel expenses.) The proposal included the replacement of corroded pipes for homeowners volunteering to take part in the study. He strongly suggested that an independent group do the study and that stakeholders be used in an advisory capacity.

Daniel (PSC) reported on decisions made by the Sulfide Source Water Issues Work Group in their first meeting, including their decision to concentrate only on the sulfur in the water and the reaction with copper piping. Tenah re-stated that there are other factors involved. Madani (DCA) added that it was cheaper to consider all factors concurrently rather than have to go back again, and suggested that recommending additional research to further define the problem would open other ways to solve it.

John Williams (PSC) pointed out that the DEP will not pursue the problem if there are no adverse health impacts demonstrated. Killinger (FAC) pointed out that the codes aspect of the issue appears resolved in the 2001 Florida Building Code, and that the recommendation can be made to the Legislature to request additional authority for the PSC and DEP to regulate black water. Further, he recommended that concerned parties contact people who know funding sources to identify help for people who need to re-pipe. Madani (DCA) recommended getting representatives of the insurance industry involved to explore options for helping people with black water problems.

Conclusion:
The next meeting will be held in Room 260N of the Sadowski Building (2555 Shumard Oak Boulevard, Tallahassee, Florida), on Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 1:30. The following tasks were assigned:

• Look at and be prepared to comment on Dr. Tenah's proposal by the next meeting (pp. 15-22) – (everyone)
• Identify locations where copper is referenced in Ch. 6 of the FBC-Plumbing (Madani, Stanton)
• Invite a Department of Insurance representative to the next meeting (Madani)

The meeting was adjourned at 4:00 p.m.

Building Codes / County Ordinances / Education Work Group

~WORK PLAN~

1. I. MISSION STATEMENT:

   Work jointly with the Florida Building Commission/Plumbing Technical Advisory Committee on the development of training/educational materials for the Florida Building Code - Plumbing requirements pertaining to copper pipe corrosion.

2. II. BUILDING CODE - BACKGROUND:
   1. The 1994 Standard Plumbing Code is currently the state minimum plumbing code.
   2. The 1998 Legislature mandated the development of the new unified building code, the Florida Building Code, and established the Florida Building Commission (Commission) as the body responsible for the development of the Florida Building Code (FBC).
   3. It is the goal of the Commission to adopt the Code by November 2000, effective July 2001.
   4. The base document of the FBC - Plumbing is the 1997 International Plumbing Code.
   5. The FBC - Plumbing, Chapter 6 Water Supply and Distribution, provides for several provisions which require pipes to be resistant to corrosive action and installed in accordance with up-to-date standards.
   6. The FBC is in the process of developing training materials (transition training) on the new requirements of the building codes as early as December 2000.
   7. The new FBC does address the copper corrosion problem in a sufficient manner.
      
      
3. III. CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS:
   1. August 24, 2000: Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project Meeting 1

      Initial discussion of proposed project strategy and work group structure.

   2. September 8, 2000: Work Group Meeting 1

      General discussion.

   3. September 14, 2000: Work Group Meeting 2

      Agreement reached among work group members to:

      1. Develop an education/outreach program on copper corrosion and related FBC requirements through local governments, trade associations, design professional associations, building owner associations, local colleges, utilities, etc., including:
         1. Identification of those needing education
            1. CEU credit related to copper corrosion for the construction industry
         2. Identification of types of training needed
            1. Water pipe compatibility with water supplied by the utilities
            2. Proper sizing of water service pipes
            3. Proper methods of installation of copper pipes including soldered joints and flux (ASTM B 828 & ASTM B 813)
         3. Identification of areas within the state with the hydrogen sulfide problem (in order to emphasize need for training in those areas)
         4. Coordination between utilities, contractors, building departments, etc. with regard to water and pipe compatibility
            1. Require utilities to report premature water pipe failure or other evidence of hydrogen sulfide to building departments or DEP.
            2. Encourage contractors to report pipe failure and possible causes to building departments.
            3. Encourage contractors to report pipe failure and possible causes to utilities.
            4. Require local building departments report problems to the Florida Building Commission.
      2. Identify key stakeholders:
         

         Building departments / building officials

         Copper Development Association, Inc.

         Utilities

         Florida Public Service Commission

         Florida Association of Counties

         Florida League of Cities

         Trade associations

         Design professional / associations

         Florida Department of Environmental Protection

         Florida Department of Community Affairs / Florida Building Commission

         American Water Works Association - Florida Section

         Florida Rural Water Association

         Office of Public Counsel

         Florida Home Builders Association

         Florida Board of Building Codes & Standards

         Developers / realtors

         
         
   4. September 29, 2000: Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project Meeting 2 (FPSC Easley Bldg, Room E-152, Tallahassee)

      Progress report of the work group to the Interagency Project group.

   5. October 16-17, 2000: Meeting of the FBC Plumbing Technical Advisory Committee (Orlando)

      Joint meeting of the FBC Plumbing Technical Advisory Committee and stakeholders to further refine and prioritize work group goals concerning the education/outreach program.

   6. November 13-14, 2000: Meeting of the Florida Building Commission (West Palm)

      Joint meeting with the FBC Plumbing Technical Advisory Committee to develop recommendations for consideration by the Florida Building Commission. The recommendations will address specific training subject matters for inclusion in the training program of the FBC.

   7. December, 2000: Interagency Copper Pipe Corrosion ("Black Water") Project Meeting (Tallahassee)

      Report of work group on the outcome of its activities to Interagency Project group.